Friday, September 12, 2014
Is Plato a Feminist?
Plato, through the mouthpiece of Socrates, advocates some radical views about woman in Chapter 7 of the Republic. In particular, he argues not only that women can be guardians, but that they can have equal duties (more or less) and an identical education. The only exception he makes is for physical difference between the sexes. These views are in stark contrast to a woman's place in 5th century Athens, in which a woman was prohibited from a political life and confined to the domestic household (and had a similarly limited education). Does it make sense to call Plato a feminist (and does it depend on your notion of feminism)? Or does Plato still miss something important about women? Furthermore, have we in 21st century America realized his ideas?
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When tackling this question, it is important to consider both the definition of feminism and the frame of reference in which the question is being asked. Myself, I define feminism as the belief that the sexes are equal in all aspects, and that women should have the same social, political, and economic opportunities as men. In his argument, Plato addresses some of these points, but also falls short in some regards. By a modern standard, he would not be seen as a feminist; however, in the context of fifth-century Athens, Plato is way ahead of the curve, provided his ideas about equality are genuine and not purely hypothetical.
ReplyDelete“What is that, you say? Women can be rulers of a society and fight in wars? Preposterous! They’re far too emotional, and should really stick to housekeeping,” is what most any other man in ancient Athens would be inclined to say when faced with Plato’s propositions. To suggest that a woman could hold any office that could also be held by a man was unheard of; but Plato seems to put the good of the community above the social constructs of the time. So long as the community is well-guarded and runs smoothly, it could not matter less what sex the defenders is. Further, the notion that education should be afforded to both sexes suggests that Plato believes women have equal intellectual capacity to men. The only distinction he makes between the inherent natures of the sexes is that women are physically weaker. His reliance on the biological argument (which we agreed in class was a rather weak one) is where Plato’s ideas begin to go south. In section 454e, just to point out one example of how Plato does not completely disconnect from the patriarchy, he says, “the guardians and their women,” where he easily could have included women under the title of guardians. Even to a progressive thinker like Plato, women are still the property of their husbands. Thus, outside of the ability to share occupations with men, women are not viewed through the same lens from a social or economic standpoint. If he were to suggest that women could independently become a member of the guardianship without having to marry a male guardian, that would be a different story entirely, because it promotes the idea that women are able to make something of their lives without depending on men to get them there. Asking that Plato believe in complete equality of the sexes would be a tremendous request given the environment in which he lived. But radical social change almost never happens overnight, so perhaps we can call Plato a developing feminist, one who is headed in the right direction with a lot still to learn.
Today, I think Plato’s ideas have been realized to a very large extent, but some of the flaws that his argument held are still in practice today. Even in the same offices as men, women make considerably less – 20-35% less, depending where you are. And that difference is taking its toll on the female population. According to an article in the Atlantic*, women in positions of power are considerably less confident in their abilities because they've grown up thinking that they are unequal to men in so many regards. So even though we've come very far, even in the last 60 years, in terms of gender equality, we, like Plato, still have miles to go.
* http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/04/the-confidence-gap/359815/
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ReplyDeleteThe precise definition of “feminist” is not, and has never been, agreed upon, even by feminists themselves. In order to arrive at a concrete definition, it is helpful to look at the overarching goal of the modern feminist movement. In general, all feminists, regardless of degree of radicalism, tend to agree that certain changes, whether diplomatic, attitudinal, or both, need to be made in society in order to advance the rights of women. Thus, we can conclude that a feminist is anyone who believes in such societal changes, when such changes are significant. This makes sense – any movement, like the feminist movement, takes time to progress and actually make changes, and thus, those who, relative to those around them in society, believe most strongly in the rights of women, are the feminists.
ReplyDeleteIn this sense, Plato, in arguing for a degree of equal opportunity for women in ancient Athens, is quite the feminist. In Book 7 of the Republic, Plato outlines the role of women and children in his radical, communal society, in which everyone has a prescribed duty to fulfill. When faced with questions regarding the role of women in this society, Plato, at the very least, supports the promotion of equal educational opportunity in education between men and women, arguing, “If either the male or female gender turns out to be better than the other at some profession… then… this is an occupation which ought to be assigned to that gender” (454d). Thinking of the time period in which Plato was writing –when men, and only men, were given the education necessary to become a leader – Plato’s beliefs certainly promote a change in society’s treatment of women, and even border on radical. Plato may argue that “a woman’s nature differ[s] a great deal from a man’s” (453b), but to even promote the education of females, in order to prepare women to take on the roles of community leaders, was not common in ancient Athens. In fact, Plato emphasizes that the different natures of men and women are due primarily to the individual mindset, and thus, even if women and men tend to differ in nature, he doesn’t reject the possibility that a woman is capable of thinking logically on a level commonly prescribed to men by many of Plato’s contemporaries (454d). However, Plato is sure to emphasize that, no matter the equality in opportunity, women are guaranteed to be weaker than men, stating that women “the weaker sex in all respects” (455e). On the surface, this belief may seem rather sexist, yet Plato is only arguing that women are inherently physically weaker than men (an argument that is still fairly false, but less egregiously sexist). In fact, by emphasizing that “women and men… have the same natural ability for guarding a community” (456a), and promising even the opportunity for women to prove themselves comparable to male leaders, Plato is most promoting his early feminism.
On paper, we have realized all of Plato’s ideals – top educational institutions are coeducational, women are not barred from holding positions of power in any industrialized nation, and the rights of women with regards to military combat are increasing. However, the realities of modern society, at least in the modern United States, are far grimmer than what laws may suggest. Women, on average, make 77 cents for every dollar made by a man, for doing the same job. Many conservatives, under the guise of “religious freedom” are fighting to keep women from exercising control over their own reproductive systems. Sexism runs rampant on the internet, where anonymous rape threats and disturbing comments have become normal. Even Plato’s ideals, which focus solely on equality in opportunity for women, are held back in society – a woman in a position of power, thanks to societal norms that have stuck around for millennia, struggles to command the same respect that a respected man does. We are a society that gives opportunity, but doesn’t always respect that opportunity. Still, we are making progress, as more and more people are shedding outdated sexist views, embracing the realities of our new era.
Feminism is the term used to describe advocacy of women rights towards equality with men. The term nowadays is often referred to the devotion woman have towards equality with men, after long history of never being looked at as an equal part. Based on this definition, we can conclude that Plato is a feminist to a certain extent. He advocates for women equality and sees them as equals of the republic. Throughout Plato Republic, we see numerous occasions where Plato gives women and children attention and showcases how he believes they should have a part in society. During his time, the female race was shunned and completely disregarded from society but rather seen as an object; Plato goes against this norm and sees them as people that equalize the male political leaders of his time. As he says, "Men and women will campaign together, and they'll also take any sturdy children with them to war, so that they see the work they'll have to do when they become adults….." (467a). In this quote, Plato does not distinguishes women and men as two separate races, but rather captures them in a single frame to campaign together and unite for an equal cause just as they should be. Throughout chapter 7, it is evident that Plato gives woman a part in society. In his day, women where slaves to the homes they worked in, they were simple housewives that received no education and where seen as less than the men in the social class. For his time, Plato gave women more credit and rights and more appreciation therefore we can conclude his views were feministic. The fact that Plato was able to even include women in his train of thought puts him years in advance from any other man in Athens. His views created the basis for our present perception on woman rights. In our current 21st century state, we have evolved and adapted his views and are able to recognize how women should be equal to men. Feminism has become a prominent idea and although many have not yet established these ideas and still see women as less than equal to the male race, as a whole we have improved on this subject.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Plato is a feminist in the sense that he thinks that women are capable of doing the same things that men do. Although they established that they believe men are “far superior” to women, he thinks that women can be guardians in the community and have leadership roles if they are exceptionally good. He thinks that the exceptionally good women should receive the same education that exceptionally good men get: "Well, in order to make women good at guarding, we won't be providing them with a different education from the one that works for men, will we? After all, it's the same nature the educational system takes on in both cases." In other words, because they have to do the same job, they should learn in the same way. This is quite revolutionary for his time because even though men and women have vastly different natures, Plato dares to promote equality between the two sexes, as if they can learn in a similar manner, likening them to each other. In modern times, this attitude is much more prevalent among men and women alike and would never be considered to be radically progressive or “feminist”. He also believes that women should share in the activities of men. He uses an analogy of guard dogs to illustrate his point: “’Well, should female guard-dogs share with the males the guarding and hunting and whatever other duties the males might have, do you think?’” to which Glaucon responds with “’They should share in everything’”. This shows that Plato, although not arguing on behalf of women through his own belief, is willing to advocate their cause through logic.
ReplyDeleteHowever, he does not believe that women can match men in most areas of life. This is the antithesis of feminism, and is in fact misogyny. By today’s standards, he would not be considered a feminist at all; he would be criticized by the majority of people for having such views. But we do have to consider the time period that he proposed these ideas. Ancient Greece was not very keen on promoting the rights of women, so even though Plato is a bit of a misogynist by today’s standards, he was quite the feminist back in his time. He even advocates for female guardians, who would wield political power along with their male counterparts. Such brash and unruly assertions would have been met with outrage, and would have ostracized Plato from practically everyone else in the community. In perspective, his arguments were among the first of a feminist nature, so we should appreciate the fact that he was willing to propose them even though they seemed so outrageous at the time.
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ReplyDeleteTo a certain degree, Plato displayed a feminists' view of women's equality in Chapter 7. Although he may make a few sexist comments, the general idea that is portrayed in the chapter supports feminism. This response will solely look at the extent to which Plato is a feminist within his time, not modern day feminism.
ReplyDelete"Men may be better at most things, but that does not mean they have exclusive rights to those functions" (pg.162). Although a slight sexist remark is made, the door is left open for women to gain these "functions". Opportunity is key. Women, if seen fit to have a position in this society, can have it. Plato takes an open minded approach towards feminism, and in doing so, allows women to gain positions that in this time period were explicitly for men. "So if either the male or the female gender turns out to be better than the other gender at some profession or occupation, then we'll claim that this is an occupation which ought to be assigned to that gender". (454d) Others of Plato’s’ time would very easily say that men are inherently better at "x" and therefore they will have that position. Plato provides a chance for women, essentially looking at things logically. What he is saying makes the most sense. If a women would be a far better leader in a certain circumstance than a man would be, why would one want the less effective man to lead. Although the definition of feminism is somewhat amorphous, rather than crystalline, we will say that it is along the lines of advocating for women to be put on a better plane than they already are on, or at least providing them the opportunity to do so themselves. From the given examples above, one can say that Plato does at least the bare minimum of leaving the door open for women to raise themselves to a higher plane, therefore allowing us to consider him a feminist.
In my opinion of the modern definition of feminism, I am completely in accordance with Google's definition, which is "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." Thus, it would be inaccurate to state that Plato is a feminist, as seen firstly through the word "advocacy".
ReplyDeleteIt is demonstrated the characteristics of Plato himself and through his arguments that he never "advocates" for anything; he clearly states that "'When someone...who still hasn't formed any definite conclusions does the talking, as I am, it's a cause for alarm and caution'" and that "'deceiving people about customs which are truly good and moral is more of a sin than accidentally killing someone'" (450d-451a). In other words, he argues that the fact that he has not thought extensively on the role of women in moral societies could make his conclusions deceptive, and is initially reluctant on discussing the matter. If Plato is unsure of his own opinions on a specific topic, how can one conclude that he is advocating for that specific topic? In other words, if one is not sure about feminism, how he/she cannot be advocating for feminism?
Secondly, Plato's arrives at a conclusion about women in society through a rational thought process, not necessarily because he is in favor of women's rights. In other words, if his argument had swayed in another direction, he could have just as easily concluded that women should not have any rights equal to those of men's. He interrogates, "'When you distinguish people as naturally competent, don't you mean that some people find it easy to learn that subject...? (455b), where he had already proven that men and women have the same natures by stating that if "'[men and women] had different natures...then we might [as well] make hair disqualify people from being shoemakers'” (454c). From there he concludes that "'Innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects'" (455d-e), basically arguing that women and men have different skill sets, and that the best of the women become guardians and the best of the men become guardians, where the best of the women are not even close to equal to the best of the men in terms of strength. Primarily, he is presenting a logical argument instead of in which he was biased towards feminism from the beginning, and secondly, how can anyone support gender equality when he or she clearly states that women are unequal to men in "in just about every sphere" (455d)?
Finally, we have far surpassed Plato's ideas on possible female equality, since many Western-influenced nations presently accept the notion that women should receive equal treatment and "have rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic" equal to those of their male counterparts. Plato's obsolete opinion that "'The [male] gender is far superior to the other in just about every sphere'" must first be rejected in order to achieve such equality (455d).
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ReplyDeleteFeminism, being both multifaceted in its viewpoints and complex in its meaning, is a term that has been used for years without a strict definition. When one turns to Merriam-Webster Dictionary, feminism is defined both as “the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities” and as “organized activity in support of women’s rights and interests.” When analyzed in accordance with the Republic, the first definition seems to be more appropriate as it discusses the idea of advancing the societal position of women while the second merely discerns what a feminist might do to advocate for that position. The first definition, as it was written very recently, approaches feminism from a modern perspective, but, as discussed in class, as women’s rights have progressed throughout the past few millennia, feminism has taken new forms. Currently, it seems as though a feminist needs to at least advocate for equality in all aspects when compared to men. With that, this isn’t a definition that can be applied to the 4th century BC but still provides a good basis for what it means to be a feminist. Also, it shows that humanity’s position has altered significantly leaving us with the question, “should Plato’s position on feminism be analyzed under modern ideas or under the less progressive societal norms of the 4th century BC?”
ReplyDeleteTo answer this question, we have to consider what a progressive society really means and what it implies for a community. So hypothetically, let’s accept that today, a feminist may be someone who promotes equality amongst men and women where tomorrow it may be someone who promotes the superiority of women. Possibly, in some distant future, men may even be considered the vast inferiors as women were during the times of Ancient Athens. Given that society is constantly progressing in some form or another, we arrive at the fact that Plato’s feminism should be analyzed under the definition of feminism and the societal stance of women of his time. With that, it is important to note that women in ancient Athens were generally viewed by the public as their husband’s obsequious housekeeper or the second in command of any household. Plato outlines society’s sexism as he says that “women are supposed to be good at” “sewing, looking after pancakes, and boiling vegetables.” (455c) Given that women were vastly underprivileged in ancient Athens, it is reasonable to assume that any attempt to societally progress women as a sex in Ancient Greece would be considered feminism under an applicable ancient definition. At this point, Plato’s claims can be considered radically feminist for his time.
When discussing a women’s ability to fill the position of a Guardian in his society, Plato makes many societally progressing claims for women that would be considered incredibly radical. He moves into these claims by first discussing the idea that everyone has a specific nature. Going hand in hand with his claims about the true definition of morality, Plato claims “that different natures should get different occupations.” He then goes on to say that he hasn’t “spent any time at all enquiring precisely what type of inherent difference and identity [h]e meant when [h]e assigned different occupations to different natures.” (454b) Recognizing his argument’s fallacy, he first defines what exactly the “inherent difference” is between a man and a woman. He suggests that, “the only difference turns out to be that females bear offspring, while males mount females.” (454e) Despite the misogynistic sexual domination of men, Plato is making an incredibly unique statement for his time. Given that there are certain biological differences between men and women in terms of sex, Plato is claiming that all else is equal meaning that in no way are women inferior to men. So, given that there is no “inherent difference” men and women don’t have “different natures” and therefore shouldn’t occupy “different occupations. His next claim completely overthrows Athens’s societal norms. He asserts that, “both women and men, then, have the same natural ability for guarding a community, and it’s just that women are innately weaker than men.” (456a) Despite the females’ societal progression in the past few millennium, the first half of Plato’s claim even overthrows certain sexist doctrines that modern day society lives by. Today, even though women have the right to rule in our democracy, not a single woman has stepped into office as president. If he were alive today, Plato would probably vote for a female candidate as long as he agrees with her policies. This is still a concept that men and women alike seem to be hard-fought to overcome in modern day society. So, in this way, Plato can be considered a feminist even under our modern definition. On the other hand, Plato still claims that, “women are innately weaker than men.” Unfortunately, this transgresses further into the realms of sexism than the simple idea that women are physically weaker than men. Undeniably, his statement paints a picture of female inferiority and displays society’s effect on Plato’s beliefs about women. So, even though his theories surpass the political thinking of people of his time, he is still stunted by their social ideology, leaving him simply a feminist under a less progressive, ancient definition. Regardless, Plato’s beliefs in gender equality surpasses nearly every thinker of his era and many more that pondered the idea of women’s rights in the intellectually enlightened eras that followed the philosophers of Ancient Greece.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 7 of The Republic, Plato argues in favor of feminist ideas. In this way, he is a feminist in the idea that he is in favor of advancing the rights and roles of women. One argument he makes is when he says, "So if either the male or the female gender turns out to be better than the other gender at some profession or occupation, then we'll claim that this is an occupation which ought to be assigned to that gender." What Plato is saying is that as long as a female can do a job better than her male counterpart, then by all means she should do that job. That isn't to say that females can do all jobs as good or better than males but that is to say that they deserve a chance to do the jobs that they do better. They shouldn't be restricted to just bearing children and staying in the house if they have something that they can offer to the community. Looking at this view from a modern perspective, while it would be hard to argue that Plato is a radical feminist, it seems as though he falls under the category of a feminist. What Plato is saying is that it really doesn’t matter what gender you are, the best person for a job should do that job. If you take this stance on racial issues, for example, you are fighting for equal rights. In that way, it is almost ludicrous to say that Plato isn’t a feminist. Plato is offering up ideas of radical change for his time period, which, unfortunately, happens to be an issue that is relevant today as well. If every employer had the mindset of Plato, then the world would be a different place right now which means that Plato must be a feminist. In any case, what Plato argues is something that was crucial for his time period and still important today so while not all of his arguments are feasible or relevant, this one most definitely is.
ReplyDeleteThroughout Chapter 7 of the republic Plato shows his view on feminism. Though most of his comments are along the lines of feminism, he does make borderline sexist comments. Plato never takes side on this issue but tends to share on both topics, whether or not feminists are right or wrong.
ReplyDeletePlato explains “there’s no administrative job in a community which belongs to a woman,” (455d). While not siding with the feminists, he shows his support of them. I believe Plato truly never sides on this issue, but rather just spoke on it. He shares his beliefs on what feminists say and do. In this quote, Plato explains that women do not have equality in the community. Women do not have the opportunities men have to work in the community. You may view this as Plato’s admittance to feminism. I view this as Plato being the middleman that he is and sharing on feminism. Plato states to us that women are stereotypically supposed to be good at “sewing, looking after pancakes, and boiling vegetables,” (455d). You cannot view the whole female gender this way. There are some women who may do well at jobs men hold and there may be men that do well at these jobs women are supposed to hold. You cannot separate the genders based on jobs. This is something that Plato is doing. He expresses his belief that women are only good at household jobs while men should do all the manual labor. Anyone who believes or thinks this way cannot be considered a feminist no matter what other comments that one makes. I believe that because of the two sides comments that Plato makes throughout chapter seven, we can classify him as not as an anti feminist, but also not a radical feminist. Plato is somewhere in the middle of the two. He keeps in a position where he can comment on both sides of this hot topic and stay neutral. He can support feminism while also go against it, just like we see demonstrated throughout chapter 7.
One definition of feminism, given by Google Dictionaries, is "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." Under this definition Plato qualifies only somewhat as a feminist as he believes that, in a good, ideal society, women and men can both have the same occupations but men will be better in doing them. He says that "women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects"(445d). However, regardless of this belief, he is still somewhat supportive of the effort of making men and women equal as he believes that there is "no administrative job in a community which belongs to a woman qua woman, or to a man qua man"(455d). He says that there is no correlation between skill at a particular job and gender, but that the thing that is really determinant of whether a person is good at a job or not is that individual his or herself. So, in conclusion, Plato does have some qualities of a feminist in believing that there are no jobs specifically designed for men and women and that either sex can have any job, but he also is a bit sexist (anti-feminist) in believing that women are, in every way, the weaker sex and that men are superior in all respects. However, it is important to note that, while he believes that men are better than women, he also believes that "a man with a medical mind and a woman with a medical mind have the same nature"(454d), meaning that the two sexes have the same internal nature when working in any occupation. It is therefore unclear whether or not Plato truly would identify with feminism (in modern terms) or would consider himself to be anti-feminism, and no clear answer is obtainable for this question.
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ReplyDeleteAlthough a true definition of feminism has never been agreed on, Google defines feminism as, "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." Plato says something different on 445d. He says, "women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects." (445d) What he is saying does not fulfill the full definition of feminism. When he says that women can have every job that men can have, he is fulfilling the economic aspect of feminism. Yet he does not say anything about women having the right to vote, partake in governing actions, or even be treated equally in public to men. In fact he goes as far as to say that women are the weaker sex than men. Plato is only partially feminist although at his time this would have been a radical thought as extreme sexism was only at its beginning in 380 BC. I disagree with Dominic Zanella’s blog when he says, “Plato never truly sides on this issue, but rather just spoke on it.” Plato has his opinion and he states that he thinks that women are the weaker sex. This is an opinion that is stated. He is showing that he believes men are better in all aspects.
ReplyDeleteThe argument that Plato is a feminist is a loaded one, which requires context. To argue that Plato was a feminist relative to the time period he lived in is a strong argument that could easily be made. Where dictionary.com defines a feminist as an “advocate of feminism”, and feminism as, “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.”, it is relatively easy to see that Plato would be considered a feminist relative to the society in which he lived. In that society, where it was the norm for women to dwell in the house and perform chores, without ever realistically having an opportunity to aspire towards greater roles within their community, Plato argues that despite their physical and characteristic shortcomings in proportion to men, that they should be educated and permitted to pursue greater occupational opportunities. Plato’s radical views on feminism relative to his society absolutely qualify him to be classified as a feminist.
ReplyDeleteHowever, these very statements speak against his perception as a feminist if we are comparing these musings to today’s standards of feminism. Where today, we have prominent female CEO’s and politicians, and women are permitted legally to pursue any career they wish, some of the very statements Plato makes that can be used in support of his classification as a feminist of his time work against him in this scenario. Where Plato argues that in women, “the only qualification is that we’re dealing with a physically weaker sex: the males are stronger.” (451e), and that, “different natures should do different work, and that men and women do have different natures,” (453e) these thoroughly contradict what would be considered progressive feminism today.